On Taking Time: Matt Johnson, The The

On the occasion of him touring Australia for Ensouled, new music for the first time in a quarter of a century, VAULT spoke to Matt Johnson, singer and songwriter of the band The The.

By Alison Kubler March 2025

 

Image credit: Matt Johnson, The The. Photo: Christie Goodwin

 

Hi Matt! I'm in Brisbane, and I think you are in Brisbane today or tomorrow.

Tomorrow. We're still in Sydney tomorrow and played a few nights at the Opera House. We played last night and were playing tonight. I've just got a beautiful view from my hotel room, looking over the Opera House. It's all illuminated in this beautiful sunlight.

Oh, how beautiful! It was very special to play in the Opera house. Have you done that before?

Yes, we did it a couple of times in 2018. And it is very special. It's just one of those; it's such a gorgeous building and the location. It's one of those venues like the Royal Albert Hall, and there are a few that I've played relatively regularly over my career, and there's always a beautiful sense of occasion. They're just beautiful buildings steeped in history, and there's always a lovely atmosphere between the performers and the audience. I love playing places like that.

I love that you use that term. The sense of occasion is special because it's not necessarily what one might associate with rock music. And then, of course, there's that just the spectacle of the building itself. It's all very aesthetic.

Oh, it's terrific and quite fascinating. I especially enjoyed its history and the controversy surrounding its construction.

Yes. I know it seems quaint now. That there was a controversy.

Yeah, there are buildings in London that are the same. St. Pancras's a very famous train station and hotel with this vast Victorian gothic structure. It is now considered a landmark in London, but it was hated when it was built. In the 1950s, it was threatened with demolition, and Sir John Benjamin, the Poet laureate in Britain, spearheaded the campaign to save it. But it's fashions and trends. What seems ugly to one generation is considered beautiful to the next. In the case of the Opera House, it's unthinkable now that it wouldn't have been given the go-ahead.

Everyone talking to you on this tour would be expressing their admiration for your work, and I'm one of those people, a massive fan. That album, Soul Mining significantly impacted me as a young person. What is it like? I've got a 19-year-old, a 17-year-old, and then a 13-year-old, but the 19 and 17-year-old are discovering your music now. And are you finding that this whole new generation is coming to an entire era of music in a way they never did before? Are you finding that streaming has made that possible?

I think so. I know that my songs have been used quite a lot in recent films. One was used in Francis Ford Coppola's latest film, Megalopolis. “This is the Day” was used in Guardians of the Galaxy. My stuff gets used a lot in films, and you can see that impact when these big films come out. The Spotify numbers jump up, so people are responding to it, and it's a different way of listening to music now. I'm still old-fashioned because I'm an album person; I like creating and sequencing the album and having people listen to it. However, I’ve realised that a younger generation tends to pick and choose more. There'll be a particular song, and they create playlists, which is the equivalent of what we used to do with old cassettes years ago when we made mixtapes. It's just a different technology with the same idea, really. But yeah, I seem to be, and we have quite a mixed audience. The tricky thing for me has been that I took so long—25 years between albums!

That's quite a long time, Matt!

Yes, it is! That was the last tour in 2018, and there was no new material to perform, but it marked the first tour in 16 years. Unlike some of my contemporaries, such as Nick Cave, who works incredibly hard with a great work ethic, I’ve taken significant breaks in my career. While he's constantly touring and replenishing his audience with a younger fanbase, I've had huge gaps. But everyone's different, and I keep busy away from the public eye. I'm not an idle person—I'm quite active in other areas outside of music. I think that experience contributes when I return to create new music. A lot of that experience outside the music industry influences my work and brings a sense of freshness. I don't believe I'm just repeating myself—at least, I hope I'm not musically. I feel quite rejuvenated returning now, full of energy and passion for music. I think if I'd just carried on churning out records and touring, I really would've gotten seriously burnt out and demoralised. So, I needed to take that time away. But to answer your question, because of the internet and how streaming services like Spotify work, yes new audiences connect. Obviously, I was a young man in my early twenties, and some of those songs I wrote in my late teens, so they really would connect with people that age. All generations go through the same stuff. We all experience similar things. One thing I always tell my kids is to imagine writing one great song, one that resonates through history. I believe "This Is the Day” is one of those songs but just think if you could write many of them—that would be incredible. It's such a beautiful legacy. Another aspect related to that Spotify thing is that my middle daughter is learning to drive. She’s using her grandfather's old car, which doesn't have any bells and whistles, just a CD player. So, she's listening to albums from start to finish, which is a new concept for her. She said, "This is amazing!" and I replied, "Yes, artists think about these things. They curate the album, considering the order of the first, middle, and last tracks." She’s a musician, a drummer, so I wanted to share that with you. We were listening to "Soul Mining" in the car, and she can appreciate the narrative arc in its progression. I find it beautiful to see this new generation returning to this process; it’s really special.

Absolutely. Do you know where the term “album” even comes from? Why? How does it relate to music?

 

I confess, I don't.

Well, back when they released the old 78s on the Shellac format, those heavy recordings often had a series of discs—you might have six in total—because this old technology only allowed for one song per side on the 10-inch records. They would create a physical album containing different discs in various sleeves, which is why the term 'album' came to mean a collection of large discs. It’s quite a nice thought, really, that you might have six of these discs in a physical album. And that's how it all originated, the album.

So analogue! And there’s this return to LPs and records!

Absolutely.

Let's talk about this album—after 25 years away, it’s like ripping off a Band-Aid to write a new one. How naturally does that process come to you?

It was easier than I expected, and I came to understand that there was quite a bit of procrastination involved in achieving success.

I reckon all good things come with procrastination.

Yeah, I think so. I was very busy living in other countries, raising children, and getting involved in local politics and soundtrack work. Then, I faced a series of bereavements in my immediate family, which took a lot of time, and I just got out of the habit. To be honest, I'm not someone who necessarily craves the limelight or the public eye. I can manage without it. That wasn't a need for me. But when it came time to sit down and write, the process turned out to be surprisingly smooth and enjoyable. I began writing; the music comes quite easily to me, but crafting lyrics that I'm proud of and believe could stand the test of time requires considerable thought and effort. I adhered to a strict work schedule. I would wake up around five in the morning and sit at this lovely old writing bureau that used to belong to my dad. I’d make myself a cup of tea, perhaps meditate for a bit, then enjoy some Japanese green tea from my little iron teapot. This would give me a solid five or six hours at the desk to write the words. I found it incredibly enjoyable, and it made me feel truly happy.

Getting back to what I love was fantastic. I found working alone during that time incredibly exhilarating. Once I had written the songs, I began collaborating with my band members and the musicians I worked with. I co-wrote some of the songs with them while others were written solo. During the rehearsal period, we practiced at my studio and recorded demos there. After rehearsals, we took everything to Peter Gabriel's studio in Bath, which is absolutely stunning. We spent six days there for live recordings. After that, we returned to my studio in London to overdub, mix, and master. Overall, the entire recording process took about six to eight months, which is quite quick for me compared to my previous albums, which often took a couple of years. It was probably the most enjoyable and easiest album I've ever made.

And why do you find it enjoyable? Is it because you're the subject matter, or is it that you mention this album explores themes of loss, grief, and love? So, is it a cathartic experience? Is that why it was enjoyable?

Well, the main reason it was enjoyable, finally, after almost 25 years, is that I returned to what I love doing and what I'm best at, which is songwriting. I don't even consider myself a musician; I don't read or write music. I'm a songwriter who plays an instrument, a musician of sorts, expressing through songs. Primarily, I'm a songwriter, and I cherish the moment when you're completely lost in the creative process. Some people across various disciplines refer to it as being in the zone, don't they? You become so immersed in the moment, filled with happiness, and in a state of blissful creativity, unaware of anything except for what you're focusing on. It was fantastic to feel that again and experience goosebumps. I'd write a melody and discover a rhyme or a couple of lyrics that fit together so well, which made me very excited. That sense of excitement I felt as a teenager, that's what I wanted to return to. So, rather than just going through the motions, I wanted it to be passionate.

I think the interesting thing is that there are very few musicians like you who can sustain a career for as long as you have. I'm actually presenting on this panel about longevity in the arts because many young artists leave art college eager for commercial representation and immediate success. However, it’s crucial they learn about playing the long game—it's about longevity. How much do you consider this, or is it not something you think about?

Oh, it's very important to me. I was very aware of this in the early days because the industry has changed significantly, especially in terms of the artists who get signed and the overall system. The old record label structure is quite different now, as artists enjoy much more autonomy. For example, when I started out on independent labels and then signed to a major label, it was CBS, which no longer exists since it was bought by Sony. Back then, CBS was known as a home for album artists. There was a clear distinction between pop acts and album artists; the latter typically enjoyed long, multi-decade careers. CBS had legends like Bob Dylan, Leonard Cohen, Johnny Cash, and Bruce Springsteen, which is why I wanted to sign with them—I aspired to be among the long-distance singer-songwriters. From an early age, I was never concerned about having big hit singles; I never made much noise on the top end of the charts, but my music sold consistently over time rather than in short bursts. I was very aware of this at an early stage, and I would advise any musician to stay true to their own vision. If you try to follow trends and what's fashionable, by the time you release your music, it's already out of fashion. So, don't imitate others—focus on what feels personally true to you, be patient, and trust yourself. There’s a culture of instant gratification nowadays, which feeds into the notion of boredom. I've got kids; my oldest is 27 and my youngest is 12. With smartphones dominating their lives, children just don't have time to be bored anymore. When I was a teenager, boredom often sparked creativity.

I think that’s really important. If I were a teenager now, I probably wouldn't get into music. I'd be slumped in the corner on my phone. Don't be frightened of boredom; allow yourself to be bored and let your natural creativity well up from deep inside to the surface.

That's just so beautiful. Don't be afraid of boredom. It's incredibly pertinent to our times. Tell me a little bit about the narrative arc of this album. And I know some of the songs, well, one of the songs is about an illness you had, I think when you were in Covid or comes out of that.

Yeah, it was during Covid, but it was just a life-threatening throat infection that came on suddenly during the height of the Covid hysteria. So yeah, “Linoleum smooth to the stocking foot” was written. I was under the influence of morphine in hospital after just undergoing this serious operation. I wrote that down during my hospital stay. It was quite an intense time because, not only was I dealing with my own situation, but there was also the extreme authoritarianism suddenly in action outside the hospital gate. Everyone in the hospital was masked up, and we weren’t allowed any visitors. There was this hysteria going on, and it gave you a glimpse of this biosecurity state. Being under the influence of morphine made the whole experience quite surreal and frightening.

What were the things you were thinking about when you were trying to kind of write this album? Was there an overarching theme as it were?

Well, with most of my albums, there's a mix of the personal and the political. There are songs about loss, like "Where Do We Go When We Die?" which I wrote for my late father who passed away at the start of the last tour. He died just two days before we were set to perform at the Royal Albert Hall, so that was really tough, and it was very close to my heart. Then there are songs like “Kissing the Ring of POTUS,” which addresses the neoliberal takeover by the Neocons of the Democrats and this infestation of our political system. It feels like a difficult political situation everywhere at the moment.

You’re really tackling some big political things and some big emotional things as well. Do you love performing live?

I do enjoy it, actually. Yeah, I’ve always been more of a studio creature, but I've been singing on stage since I was about twelve years old. So, I'm quite comfortable up there. I don't get nervous, and I like it. For a successful gig, there are multiple factors involved. First of all, each band member needs to perform their best, we need to hear ourselves well, the lighting should be good, and the sound in the venue must be clear. Most importantly, or equally important, is the audience. Do you have a good, passionate, and attentive crowd? It creates a whole experience that’s quite exhilarating.

And do you find as well that your audiences are a real mix of ages now, Matt?

Yeah. I mean, I noticed last night that when the lights come on for one of the songs, you can see there was a good mix in the audience. Some are younger, some are older, but it seems like there’s a pretty good mix. Like I said, I obviously need to get out. I've got to make up for lost time and hopefully reach new audiences.

I think that is the beauty of streaming is that it lets you reach audiences you never could have before, which is absolutely amazing. What a gift it is to be able to do that. Do you have that sense, Matt, of time running out that you've got to make up for lost time?

I don't regret taking that time off. I was busy, and I think it's pointless to have regrets. I'm not someone who tends to dwell on things, but obviously, they do exist. The truth is that as you get older, each year becomes a smaller fraction of your life. So, if you're two, a year is half of your life. If you’re 50, it's one-fiftieth of your life. If you’re 75, it's one seventy-fifth. That sensation of time speeding up... It’s just a natural occurrence. It gets faster and faster, and I just wanted to make the most of it. And it's not solely about my career; it's also about personal growth... trying to be a better person. It may seem trite, but I don’t want to reach my deathbed thinking, "Damn it, I wish I'd done more.” Instead, I want to reach my deathbed thinking, “I wish I'd been kinder.” I want to resolve everything. I don't want to hold grudges against anyone, and I don't want people to hold grudges against me. To me, I want to feel somewhat psychically and spiritually cleaner as I grow older. That's more important than worrying about tours and albums.

 

Yeah, to wrap up, I really think it's fantastic that you're touring Australia and clearly the audiences are loving it. I had mates who saw you in Melbourne and thought it was amazing—such a fantastic show! This might be a big question, but I actually asked Jeff Koons what he hoped to be remembered for, and his answer was quite unexpected. It resonated with what you just mentioned. He said he’d like to be remembered for being kind and loving his family, which was really touching and blew my mind a little. I find it interesting, so I often ask artists this because you just hinted that while you want to be remembered for your great music, there are other things you wish to be remembered for as well. What do you want your musical legacy to be? It’s quite a significant question, isn't it?

I'm very proud to provide the soundtrack to significant moments in people's lives. Many have shared with me that they've buried family members, celebrated marriages, and even conceived children while listening to my music. That's a powerful thing. Knowing that my songs have played a role in those crucial moments of life is far more valuable than any review. As a songwriter, you can't ask for anything more than to know your music is part of the soundtrack of people's lives.

I mean, it's quite significant, isn't it? What do you think about the state of music today? Just out of curiosity, what are you listening to? Or do you tend to keep yourself in a bit of a vacuum?

Yeah, I don't mean that people send me stuff, which I do listen to. I’ve got a very eclectic mix on my streaming channels and playlists. A lot of the time, I don't listen to anything because I reckon, we're bombarded with so much music. Every cab you hop into, every...
It sort of devalues music. For me, music is a very powerful, potent thing, and I prefer to listen to it with attention rather than it being wallpaper. But there's a lot of interesting music being made. There's so much out there that it's hard to keep up, but often I'll listen to bark piano music, quartets, or a bit of jazz or experimental music. I can't think of any young records, fresh records off the top. Although I do listen to most things when I get a chance, I'd have to check my playlist really. But there's not one thing I can say to at the moment. I'm into heavy rotation.

Well, look, I really hate to gush, but I actually can't tell you what an amazing moment it is for me to speak to you. It's remarkable. I never in my life thought I would talk to you, but here we are!

Thank you. And I enjoyed the interview. Thank you.